Todd, you raise the important question, as did SBO and mrgig, of whether we can adequately provision a fleet of 500 members. Totally fair question, and this is where we can distinguish between quotas (i.e., how many x's you can buy) and controls (i.e., go see an FC to get access to the store). I'm against the controls, although I'd support a waiting period to reduce the chances of fraud by fly-by-night members*, but I have no problem with quotas to address exactly your concern, particularly if we loosen them slowly over time as we test the process.

So what's a reasonable amount to ensure there's enough for everyone? I'd actually prefer setting them per person rather than per toon (why give more resources to someone just cause they have 15 toons? And why prevent people from tricking out their main with all of their allocation?), but would do something like the following to start (just putting this out there):

Ships: 3 per person (i.e. 1 for 3 toons, or 3 for 1 toon)
Ship components (weapons/consoles/...): 8 per person
Ground items: 8 per person
Buffs: Your discretion, but don't go crazy

We could then loosen them further if, after three months or so, we're still doing well with our provisions.

Reactions?

* ASIDE: On having a member cooldown period to avoid fraud by people joining the fleet just to shop, you and I and most of the others in this chat seem to support it, but it sounds like some of the leadership team doesn't. I don't think they yet understand how it can be structured to be easily managed, esp vs. the current system! It partially involves making the req. rank permanent, and if necessary, I can outline the simple process that can make it super simple to manage. Certainly we have no problem at all doing it in other fleets, and I don`t think SW is any less capable ;-). At the end of the day, it`s a net reduction in effort to do this vs. the status quo, guaranteed.

Actually Keioel, your edit is quite insightful. I'd like to add to it by mentioning one of my tricks with these discussions... if you read a thread worried that "oh my god, these people are going to get angry and argumentative", then the posts actually start LOOKING angry. As Keioel mentions, they're read with a negative interpretation.

Personally, I always read these things thinking we're a bunch of cool people having a witty conversation at a cocktail party, and then the posts all start LOOKING friendlier, by giving them a positive interpretation. It's a great trick, and it means I've really enjoyed all the discussions above, and am quite surprised when someone interprets the same discussion as an argument. Give it a shot if you haven't tried it, it's like having your own personal rose-coloured glasses and makes the world MUCH happier than if you're using the dark-coloured ones.

Is it possible for someone who has racked up over a million fleet credits to join and drain us dry? Yes, of course it's just as possible as it never happening. However, no one in this thread has been arguing for wide open access to the fleet store, if you're going to argue against what people are suggesting, it would behoove you to actually counter their points instead of an argument that no one has made. Personally, I think a 3 month window would be a good compromise on security and inclusion of new members.

Edit: I'm adding a smiley face because text is rather impersonal and is usually read in the worst possible interpretation ;)

Quote by mrgig00

Let's just keep this conversation moving forward; we're all friends here.

I heartily agree ;)

If, in addition to a fleet cred/provision minimum requirement we also instituted a 3 month waiting period in which the new member would have to ask permission from the fleet leadership to access the store; would that not be an acceptable compromise for all concerned parties? It would serve to discourage any potential boogeymen circling our fleet like vultures to spend an inordinately unprofitable amount of time away from their own fleet to try and scam us.

I recommend we do a poll. We've done them in the past and it's a good way to get a general idea on where we collectively stand on these issues by voting on what each person thinks of each option presented without having to constantly debate or defend the merits of their stance.

Quote by Toddoverton

Is that enough numbers for ya?

Sorry if I offended you. You are firmly in the "Keep the limits" column. I get that. What limits do you recommend? I know there is one ship per member. What about the other items?

Let's just keep this conversation moving forward; we're all friends here. What would you say would be an acceptable quota of Fleet Credits/number of provisions each member should get to spend in a setting?

Quote by mrgig00

I didn't keep up with the fleet credit costs, but by my estimation there are only about a dozen fleet members that could "clear us out," and they'd only be able to do it once.

My concern is not about our current fleet members, but about outsiders joining the fleet just to spend their fleet credits in our store and then quitting. I am by no means a hardcore player, but I have earned 1.5 million fleet credits. Now imagine a dozen people hearing that we have a fully-stocked fleet store with no restrictions (pardon me, voluntary quotas) on purchases. Twelve people like me, that is 18,000,000 fleet credits being spent in our store by people who promptly quit and go back to their old fleets. Is that enough numbers for ya?

Now, those arguing for fewer controls can assume that 12 (or more) such people won't appear and if they do that they won't buy up the store. But let's be clear that they are indeed assuming. They are guessing and wishing and hoping. And they swear that just because people did it to our bank is no indication whatsoever that they would do it to our store. Because people are good and should be trusted.

I, for one, am not willing to make those assumptions. They are unwarranted and contrary to the evidence. And I have made substantial contributions of my own time and treasure to our fleet provisioning projects because I knew from the beginning that our officers were actively protecting those provisions and ensuring that they were not unduly at risk of abuse. If that changes, people like me will see little reason to put so much of our effort into things the fleet isn't willing to protect. If you think you can provision a fleet of 500 players without the continuing support of people like me, then by all means go ahead. But removing these protections will be a powerful disincentive for players like me to put so much into our store.

I love contributing to our fleet projects. I love working to build up resources that we can share as a community. I love what we have accomplished together with our base and our embassy and their stores of provisions. And I feel that way in large part because I know that my contributions are valued and actively protected by our fleet. My efforts are not going to waste. The people who benefit from my contributions are my friends and fleetmates, and we have a system in place that ensures that this continues to be the case. I would suggest that most other large contributors feel the same way. The current system is a wonderful incentive for players like us to put so much of our personal stuff into these shared resources. Removing that incentive would not, in the long run, be good for our fleet.

Simma down now.

*snip*

Quote by SBOSlayer

I think the logistics speak for themselves. Some members have enough Fleet Credits to diminish the store to 0 capacity. Which means the majority who are fighting for this and don't have time, much like I don't, to garner that amount of fleet credits will most likely have to wait quite a bit for replenishing.

Well, yes and no. On the leaderboard, I've got 422595 fleet credit in the Fleetbase, and 2414 fleet credit in the Embassy. This is my only fleet, and I joined before the fleet credit system began.

I've purchased:
a Fleet RSV Retro,
2 [Advanced Fleet Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]],
[Advanced Fleet Antiproton Dual Cannons Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]],
[Advanced Fleet Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]],
[Advanced Positron Deflector Array Mk XII [Inert] [CoSys] [SInt] [CMan]],
[Advanced Fleet Combat Impulse Engines Mk XII [Turn]x3 [Spd]],
[Advanced Fleet Covariant Shield Array Mk XII [Cap]x3 [Reg]],
and 3 [Advanced Fleet Antiproton Turret Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]].

7 weapons, 1 ship, and 3 Ship components. After those purchases, I'm left with only 98541 fleet credits.

That will only buy me two Fleet Consoles at the Embassy, and then leave me broke no matter how much dilithium I have; I'll have to grind a while to buy more things.

I didn't keep up with the fleet credit costs, but by my estimation there are only about a dozen fleet members that could "clear us out," and they'd only be able to do it once.

In the end, I don't know what the solution is, but I wish there were more numbers going on in this discussion.

Heh, some good stuff SBO....

Quote by SBOSlayer

I think the logistics speak for themselves. Some members have enough Fleet Credits to diminish the store to 0 capacity. Which means the majority who are fighting for this and don't have time, much like I don't, to garner that amount of fleet credits will most likely have to wait quite a bit for replenishing.

So if you feel this way SBO, then fight for quotas. Some simple guidelines, similar (but more generous), than our current ones will help to ensure that there's enough for all. And as discussed, no member will diminish the store to 0 capacity, no one needs or wants 150 ground items, and they`d run out of dil anyway. ;-)

Quote by SBOSlayer

On the flip side according to TTS and other channels, apart from 9th fleet, we are one of the only fleet in games with nearly tier 4 capability. I'm hoping tier 5 will give us the option for a purely based provisioning system.

Well, I'm not sure about 'only'. I know of 4 fed fleets (not including the 9th) and 2 kdf fleets that are already (or are almost) tier 4, which is a large % of those I'm familiar with. But what do you mean by your second sentence? That we'll only do provisions after tier 5? I totally assume that`s the case.

Quote by SBOSlayer

Finally i'm seeing a lot of other fleets don't have this limitation. I have to say this is wrong most fleets do have this in place and are going to continue to have this in place.

Fascinating. Most fleets? Really? Well, I can only go from my experience, which is that SW is the only one of the 10 (usually rather large) fleets I've checked. I haven't caught the discussion on those channels unfortunately, although I do follow them. Can you privately send me a few of the names of the ones that use that system? Would love to do some digging.

Quote by SBOSlayer

Also Araa i'm not being funny, but why are you pushing this so hard? It's a discussion and not a fight. We have to take all opinions into consideration ;)

Why on earth do people get the impression that this is fighting? :-D It's a spirited, respectful, funny debate amongst passionate people. What's not to like? And of course you should take all opinions into consideration, I've been trying to encourage all voices to contribute, the better to clarify all the arguments.

Yes, I'm passionate about this, but the policy (for me) represents a whole bunch of things I passionately don't like, inefficiency, distrust (i.e., whatever you feel, voluntary quotas alone can ensure fairness, our current permission/"keys" system on top of that inherently implies distrust), and hierarchical behaviour. The precise opposite of the way I like my organizations to function. Particularly because we're made up of passionate volunteers who want the fleet to succeed, I would much rather see what happens when we just trust our members to behave maturely! Even if it fails, I'd be happier because I'd feel the fleet would more closely reflect my values and a have a stronger belief in its members behaviour.

I realize some don`t see these problems at all, but I`m just telling you how it looks from my perspective. Ultimately we`re all fighting for the same thing, a successful, smoothly-functioning, happy fleet!

And just to reiterate, enjoy the debate, try to learn from your debators (I've already learned a few valuable things from SBO and The Evil Genius for example), practice your communication and debating skills, have fun!

Just to interject.

If we were to open up the provisioning vs the current system, wouldn't there be more gripe about the fact people can't get anything?

I think the logistics speak for themselves. Some members have enough Fleet Credits to diminish the store to 0 capacity. Which means the majority who are fighting for this and don't have time, much like I don't, to garner that amount of fleet credits will most likely have to wait quite a bit for replenishing.

That's the way i'm currently thinking of it. Currently the system isn't working we have. We take all feedback into consideration and even sometimes debate the issue until we come up with an effective resolution strategy. That has not been the case based on the membership we have.

On the flip side according to TTS and other channels, apart from 9th fleet, we are one of the only fleet in games with nearly tier 4 capability. I'm hoping tier 5 will give us the option for a purely based provisioning system.

If this is the case it will easy to make it a "free for all" as it were.

Just a note, most of the officers haven't even used the store yet to allow for the fleet to gain the apt gear. That's how much we want you to have this... and as a pvper I'm getting desperate :P We are thinking of the fleet as a whole and to this end we would like the system to be distributed fairly, so everyone gets a chance.

Trust me we'll come up with something, hopefully to suit all. On a side note as a uker, I'll try and make myself more available to get the euro provisioning out there ;)

Finally i'm seeing a lot of other fleets don't have this limitation. I have to say this is wrong most fleets do have this in place and are going to continue to have this in place. I don't know if everyone has access to TTS, Organised pvp, doff and elite channels, but this has been a hot topic for some time with most fleets saying that the restrictions have an overall beneficial effect on moral.

Also Araa i'm not being funny, but why are you pushing this so hard? It's a discussion and not a fight. We have to take all opinions into consideration ;)

It's looking really good.

Pretty sure I am going to get this when it comes out. Sim City 4 is just too outdated visually now, but it still has the depth. I hope this new version lives up to its name.

As it is currently I really don't like the idea of bothering anyone to ask for a promotion to acquisition, and so far have only done so once to buy a couple of phasers. I don't want to take more than I am due, but I thought that the marks system would have prevented that. If you don't have the marks, I assumed you hadn't put enough into the system to take out of it.

When I joined the fleet I had no idea that would be the case. I just assumed if you had the credits and the dilithium you could buy what you wanted. Now I hear that other fleets don't have that restriction in place it kind of bothers me that Stonewall does. :dry:

On the other hand, if we have a strictly limited supply, then I can understand why it is being controlled. But not if that supply is currently running high.

If it's the case that someone with lots of marks from another fleet could come to us, then the reverse must also be true. We would probably have people here who put more in than they take out, and then leave.

Some more videos!

The new regional play feature really sounds neat to me! Just like in SimCity4, you can have multiple cities in the same region, but now its much more social and you can have friends of yours play those cities. It'd be really cool to have a Stonewall region where we can all team up and play together!

Quote by NicholasJohn16

This isn't about trust. This is about rationing a limited supply fairly.

Just my two cents. I've bought my one fleet ship, and I'm happy with it - don't really see any others I want.

HOWEVER, the fleet MK XII weapons and new ship consoles at the Embassy are making me drool, and I don't know what the limit on these items is.

That is what concerns me about opening up the fleet store -
1) How do each of these items drain our provisions?
2) How much of a dent would 10 fleet members each buying 7 weapons at a time impact our stockpile?
3) What is the limit on these items for each purchaser? Is it per weapon and per console?

The chat has been a bit quiet lately. I would like to start doing more as a group and invite anyone to contribute anything they'd be interested in doing in-game. I for one am interested in doing Fractal runs, dungeon runs, leveling alts or WvW. We need to start taking aim and different areas of the game. It's a lot more exciting and rewarding to play in groups.

Awww, shucks Nick, ya know how to make a gal feel missed. ;-) Yeah, I can be a bit persistent from time to time, but isn't that why ya love me?

I think I've actually already said my piece, so I guess I'll just leave it at that. Do love the direction it's taking though!

Oh, Araa, it's good to see that your break from STO hasn't diminished your ability to make gentle reminders seem more like driving a fist into someone's face. You have a funny way of "speaking your piece" and letting others speak their minds. I suppose if you first don't succeed, try, try, try again.

This was not a "we're gonna be conservative while we're figuring it out" policy. The current policy was decided at a fleet-wide meeting in which all members in attendance were informed about how the new system works, it's limitations and our fears. They decided how we should proceed from that point. It doesn't get more egalitarian than that. :)

This isn't about trust. This is about rationing a limited supply fairly. That being said, our need to ration has diminished since this process was first decided. (Although, we have yet to build up a large supply of Embassy provisions.) It's been a topic of discussion among the leadership for sometime now with us debating what to do about limits and promotions. We're glad that all of you have used the forums to express your thoughts on the matter.

If we were to open up access to the fleet stores, we wouldn't do it by creating a new rank and furthering complicating how the fleet runs. We already have a ranks that separate recent joins and people that are involved in the fleet; Cadet and Member. Basing store access on donation would necessitate someone actually tallying up all donation amounts for all their characters in all our fleets. Counting would be incredibly time consuming and tedious for literally hundreds of members and characters.

Personally, one of the biggest reasons I'd like to see the 'Purchase from Fleet Store' permission given to Members is to remove this additional burden to our hard working Fleet Captains and Admirals. While promoting and demoting members isn't that time consuming, it's a little bit of tedium that I'd like to remove from their burden. Then I can find more work for them to do. :evil:

Time Zone based volunteers aren't really an option. We don't get volunteers based on location; we get them based on their availability. Even if we picked Fleet Captains based on their time zones, we can't require them to play at certain times. The much easier solution to this problem is to open up access to the fleet stores. [Actually Sthiss, one of our Admirals have been trying to contact you via in-game mail about your promotion.]

Quote by Araa

Why? The simple reason is zombie accounts, people that join a fleet and then just leave the game (or take a break long enough to get pruned), artificially inflating the size of the fleet.

Zombie accounts don't happen. We don't prune the fleet roster just when we're running out of space, we do it regularly to remove any characters that have not logged on three months. Dead accounts don't stay around any longer than that and for that reason the roster is a pretty good indicator of activity. Recently, we've needed to be increasingly prompt on the 3 month limit because we have so many active characters.

Yes, it would be news if we we're no longer the largest glbt fleet in STO. Unless this fleet has the ability to recruit without any advertisements, being listed on google or discussed on the STO forums.

Measuring who's currently online isn't exactly a perfect metric either. It would be very biased depending on your location.

We haven`t discussed Option #5, opening the store to all (non-Recruit) members. While a reasonable option to consider, IMHO, I personally wouldn't go QUITE this far from the start, simply because I feel we'd open ourselves a little bit too much to 'grazing', people who join the fleet simply to pick up a few extra ground weapons or buffs. While I don't believe large scale fraud is possibility, we'd have to accept the fact that this option would increase our risk of multiple instances of small scale fraud, including particularly to the buff provisions.

For the record, if I had to choose one option, I'd vote for option 4, with a member cooldown of some period (3 months?) before having full access to the store. I don't think quotas are necessary, but some useful guidelines could be put in place (e.g., don't shop for your BOFFs, here are some pointers on what's good to buy and what's not, etc.). Controlled access to the stores (the system we use today) could still be allowed during the member's cooldown period. After running this for a few months, I'd then consider opening it to all members.

Any other votes, options, or insights?

Thanks Doc, great to know we're in astoundingly in sync with one of the leadership team's topics of the day!

I don't think there are any hackles being raised, it seems to be all in very good fun (I'm having a blast with my worthy colleagues, I have to say), and any debates between positions should only help to strengthen and clarify the positions and their relative merits.

To take one example, my request for Todd to put some figures behind this mysterious threat that we're facing is a counterpoint, but in my view it's CRITICAL to moving the discussion beyond "we need to be safe because of some scary people" and into a data-driven understanding of the EXTENT of that risk and the motivations behind these alleged scsammers. For anyone seriously concerned about a potential security risk, I highly suggest you sit down and do some calculations using our # of provisions, cost of purchases (fleet credits AND dil) and the items they'd be purchasing.

Now the other possibility is that REAL demand lowers the provision count (for ground equip and buffs), but we can always use voluntary quotas to ease that in and see gradually if that's going to be a significant concern. Personally, I feel there's so little actually worth buying in fleet stores that it shouldn't be, but I could be wrong on this count.

Just to pull back the curtain a little, fleet leadership has been discussing this issue and we're currently weighing potential new policies against the current one. We're closely keeping up with everyone's ideas and opinions on how to handle the starbase provos.

That being said, just to keep everyone's hackles down: this is not a question that will be settled by out-arguing the people who hold other stances. The best way to have your voice make a difference is to state your own opinion clearly and make a case for it.

I vote for Araa's options 2 & 4! And Time Zone Captains!